Comments on: communitas is only useful if you want to keep the emerging church adolescent

By: onerosenz

onerosenz — Mon, 14 Nov 2005 03:57:12 +0000

I wonder if some people and some groups are called to remain liminal/on the edge for long periods of time as guides in the wilderness. I think of religious communities, of hermits, of radical social justice activists perhaps.

They do this at some cost to themselves, but keep fires burning for those who may be wandering the byways.

Just a thought.

By: ben Edson

ben Edson — Sat, 05 Nov 2005 13:43:39 +0000

I find communitas helpful, not as a model for church but as a concept. I agree it is a missue of Turner to apply it to church but am reluctant to loose it altogether.

Communitas needs to be seen as what it originally defined for in Von Gennep’s Rite’s of Passage. In this context there was manipulation and the role of women is certainly dubious, however as a concept it is fascinating.

I don’t think that we should have a ‘communitas’ church, it is immature and not fully formed. However I’m drawn to it missiologically, not because i think that church should be like it, but because the values within anti-stucture are values that i think people want within church. I’ve written about the hermeneutic of commuitas as part of the missiological make up of Sanctus1.

By: Steve

Steve — Sat, 05 Nov 2005 05:12:09 +0000

Ben,
I agree with you that there are some attractive linkages between liminality and culture. That is why I initially explored Turner when I started my PhD. In the end I felt that the episodic nature of liminality, as described by Turner, was not an accurate fit with a widespread period of cultural change that we are in. For instance, if we are in a culture of liminality then their should be widespread cultural communitas.

But I see culture becoming both more individualised and yet with pockets of communality, rather than widespread communitas.

Hence I used the term “de-centred” in my PhD which captures notions of transition and uncertainty.

What I strongly object to is the application of liminality and communitas to church; for the reasons I describe in the post above
- I think it is a misuse of Turner
- it’s original use involves manipulation of environments and I see nothing in the way of Jesus that supports such modes of behaviour
- I see your point that adolescense is an important phase, but don’t want to see mission and church reduced to adolescence.
- there is also a gender issue that potentially lies behind this. I would need to re-read Turner again to check, but I recollect that his work focused on male initiation rites. What then the place of women in the “communitas” church?

By: ben Edson

ben Edson — Sat, 05 Nov 2005 04:49:34 +0000

I think that we should have a relationship of aggregation with the church, where we re-connect with the established church, value it and bring about transformation – moving on from the period of liminality. I agree with you there.

However, culture is in a period of transition and i think that the some of the values of liminality sucah as Equality, Absence of property, Absence of Status, Minimization of gender distinction, Silence and Sacredness are helpful points of connection with the culture of post-modernity and therefore I’d hate to lose these values if we moved to a period of ‘structure’…How therefore can we keep the values of liminality and also go through aggregation?

By: Andrew

Andrew — Sat, 05 Nov 2005 03:07:33 +0000

Amen Steve. Finally someone who has read Victor Turner and applies his work thoughtfully!

By: Ben Edson

Ben Edson — Fri, 04 Nov 2005 19:22:51 +0000

I agree with some of your thoughts, however i do not think that we can just dismiss communitas as juvenile adolesence. Aggregation, the next stage that is identified, is what we need to move towards but we should not dismiss the importance of communitas. Adolensence is an important phase and arguably the phase that most profoundly shapes our adulthood…enjoy it!!

and also my understanding was liminality, not communitas, was the inbetween period. Communitas arises in periods of liminality.